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Dennis_K
super gas


Reged: Jan 21 2003
Loc: SW Minnesota
1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318?
      #4563701 - Sun Jul 20 2008 03:18 PM

A friend just picked up a 1965 Sport Fury with a stuck 318 poly in it. We pulled the engine and tore it down, and it looks like it could be brought back to life. 2 of the cylinders have some rust pitting, but I'm sure they could be bored out. How much can these blocks be bored? Are there any performance parts available for these engines like cams, manifolds, headers, etc. or would be be better off swapping in a newer LA 318? He has a couple of decent running LA 318s, but they are in 4WD pickups, so the transmissions wouldn't work in the Fury. Could the original 1965 trans be made to work with a newer style 318? Are the mounts the same? Sorry for so many questions all at once. I don't have any experience with the old 318s. Thanks!

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BobK
super stock


Reged: Jun 03 2005
Loc: Chesapeake Va
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4563765 - Sun Jul 20 2008 03:54 PM

Contact Gary Pavlovich for performance parts for the poly. TTI makes headers. glpavlovich@cox.net He got me a cam, pistons, etc. The poly can be made to run!!!!



--------------------
1964 Imperial Crown Coupe
1964 Plymouth Belvedere x 2
1964 Plymouth Fury x 2
1964 Plymouth Sport Fury
1967 VW Beetle


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BobK
super stock


Reged: Jun 03 2005
Loc: Chesapeake Va
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4563773 - Sun Jul 20 2008 03:57 PM

Also, the newer 318's will bolt up to the early 727. The valves, timing gear, water pump, fuel pump, crank (318 & 340) will work in the poly. The Mopar stroker crank for a 318-340 will work in the poly.

--------------------
1964 Imperial Crown Coupe
1964 Plymouth Belvedere x 2
1964 Plymouth Fury x 2
1964 Plymouth Sport Fury
1967 VW Beetle


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Dennis_K
super gas


Reged: Jan 21 2003
Loc: SW Minnesota
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: BobK]
      #4563988 - Sun Jul 20 2008 05:50 PM

Thanks for the info. I always thought that there was something different about the way the transmissions bolted to the engines between the Poly and the LA. I'm glad to know I was wrong! We will probably just drop in a '72 318 in it for now, then take our time to rebuild and maybe hop up the old Poly as time and money permits.

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BobK
super stock


Reged: Jun 03 2005
Loc: Chesapeake Va
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4564165 - Sun Jul 20 2008 07:00 PM

i believe that there is one bolt hole different, but it will work. Explore this site for more info.

www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com

--------------------
1964 Imperial Crown Coupe
1964 Plymouth Belvedere x 2
1964 Plymouth Fury x 2
1964 Plymouth Sport Fury
1967 VW Beetle


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moparpollack
Pencil Packin' Commando


Reged: Nov 13 2005
Loc: OKC OK
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4564228 - Sun Jul 20 2008 07:22 PM

Look at the intake and exhaust ports. Then look at the modern 318 ports. Those engines were great as low rpm motors but anything else I would say pass.

--------------------
39 Plymouth Pick Up, 66 Coronet 440 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 340 Swinger soon to be for sale, 69 Super Bee Silver with red interior, 70 360 Swinger soon to be for sale, 79 D150 318, 13 Challenger R/T and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d


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Andrewh
super gas


Reged: Feb 17 2003
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: moparpollack]
      #4564434 - Sun Jul 20 2008 08:35 PM

I just did a swap from a 65 coronet with the poly to a new magnum 360. Indeed there is one bolt hole, on the driverside that does not line up. We left it out.
The transmission is different in other ways, so you have to keep your old torque converter as well.
So the problem then be comes balance. The newer engines I thought were all cast crank, the 65 is a steel. So you may have some issues there. The mangnum has a flex plate that is balanced for the engine, so I didn't have to do anything else.

The motor mounts might be different, but the ears should still be there on the newer motor so you can use your old motor mounts.

I like the old poly's, but I wanted efi, so this was a better road to take.

The polys can be bored out 60 over or more according to some sites. Depends on what the sonic test shows.
That guy mentioned above sells a stroker kit for the poly to put out some crazy horse power.


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65rbdodge
master


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: n.e. pa.
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Andrewh]
      #4564805 - Mon Jul 21 2008 05:09 AM

i have a poly w/68k miles on it for sale of you are interested. ran great when i took it out. PM me if you are interested.

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Fury Fan
Located via SONAR


Reged: Dec 07 2006
Loc: Indiana
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: 65rbdodge]
      #4564840 - Mon Jul 21 2008 05:48 AM

And '66-older transmissions have a different input spline count so be aware of this when swapping converters...

--------------------
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.


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Dennis_K
super gas


Reged: Jan 21 2003
Loc: SW Minnesota
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Andrewh]
      #4565148 - Mon Jul 21 2008 08:57 AM

Were any of the LA 318s internally balanced? We would have to use the 65 torque converter, so if the newer 318s are externally balanced, we would need to add a weight to the old converter, correct?

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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Fury Fan]
      #4565170 - Mon Jul 21 2008 09:18 AM

Quote:

And '66-older transmissions have a different input spline count so be aware of this when swapping converters...




Yep, but later pumps and input shafts will swap in to the older aluminum torqueflites, and then you can use the newer style convertors w/o any problem.


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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4565194 - Mon Jul 21 2008 09:27 AM

Quote:

Were any of the LA 318s internally balanced? We would have to use the 65 torque converter, so if the newer 318s are externally balanced, we would need to add a weight to the old converter, correct?




All the poly 318's were internally balanced, as were all LA 318's until ???? AFAIK, the late magnum 318's are also internally balanced, but I could be wrong.


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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #4565347 - Mon Jul 21 2008 10:40 AM

If you get a late 318 with cast crank you either need to use the B&M conversion flex plate thats balanced for the cast crank or add MP torque converter weights to the old converter.Easy fix.
So I know everyone wants the latest and greatest toy from the shinny magazine pages but being creative and taking old tech and applying some new tech is cool as are the old Poly motors.
The last thing I ever want to see is a row of old classic mopars with their hoods up and car after car is loaded with a 5.7 German hemi.
Dare to be differant be a hot rodder not a parts installer.Ok thats my rant forthe day.


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2boltmain
master


Reged: Jul 26 2003
Loc: MI Allegan county
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #4565391 - Mon Jul 21 2008 11:05 AM

Parts are available to rebuild the poly. If you are on a tight budget the LA would be cheaper. The poly is different and very cool. Weiand still makes a dual plane 2x4 intake for this motor. Different is good. Its nice to see a 409, a nail head, a flathead, a 331,354,392 hemi, a POLY...ect (351 cleveland is a nice change in a mustang for once also.)

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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #4565409 - Mon Jul 21 2008 11:13 AM

From this post:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=3771330

is this quote from "dogdays":

Quote:

[E]very single 318, A or LA, also every 273 was internally balanced. Even the 5.2 Mags are internally balanced.




I think I'm safe in saying that while cast-crank 340's and all 360's (which are all cast crank) are externally balanced, both forged AND cast-crank 273's and 318's are internally balanced.


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HotRodDave
The Mileage Master


Reged: Jan 29 2005
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #4565453 - Mon Jul 21 2008 11:41 AM

ALL 318s poly or LA cast or forged are internally balanced.


Some time in production of the poly 318 the starter hole was changed. I was putting a 318 poly in a dart with a 318 LA and got it all in there and the starter would not go in. I don't remember what the difference was or if I could have just used the older starter but I didn't have on to try so I dropped a 273 in that I had on the other side of the shop. I think the motor I was trying was a 64 from a polara 4dr.

The poly has good combustion chamber shape, OK intake ports and very good exhaust ports. There are a few cam available, TTI makes headers weind intakes, and whatevr stroker kits fit in 318LAs will fit in them. Since the valves are closer to straight up and down piston to valve clearance should not be a problem. I have heard of guys going all the way to 340 size bores with them but I would get a very reputable sonic tester to test it first, even if they all could go 4.040 bore when new (not) they are 40plus years old and have corosion in them reduceing the maximum over bore. You could make a very stout 390 something stroker with them. Put in a good cam intake and port work on the intake side of the heads and it will make a killer sleeper

450hp and 500tq is not out of the realm of reality.

--------------------
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




68 cuda 360 notchback SOLD

1996 Ram 2500 5.9 eddy intake EQ heads, mild cam upgrade great tow rig!



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KMPX2
mopar addict


Reged: Mar 26 2007
Loc: LENOX , MI
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #4565487 - Mon Jul 21 2008 12:02 PM

They make a Six-Pack set up for poly. Matter of fact I just sold a complete unit intake/carbs.

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dogdays
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: HotRodDave]
      #4565497 - Mon Jul 21 2008 12:06 PM

Poly Lovers, Unite!
Thanks for remembering my post. ALL 318s and 5.2 Mags, as well as all 273s are internally balanced. For sure also ANY 318 or 273 (not sure about 5.2)crank can be swapped into ANY OTHER 273 or 318 without rebalancing. So if the Poly had a crank with the smaller diameter ring for the converter, a later 318 crank can swap right in with no other changes, except the thrust bearing in the new crank's bearing set has to be the older smaller diameter one to fit the block. So the 'bay's $99.95 318 crank and kit may need a different thrust bearing to go into the Poly block.

On to the ports. I believe that if you compare the cross-section of the Poly intake port to the cross-section of the 318 (not 360) intake port you will find that the Poly has more cross-section. I also believe that the Poly head flows quite a bit more than the 135 cfm of the usual 318 port. Old-timers concur that an old 318 is a lot stouter than a new (LA) 318 for pulling a trailer. Old timers like this don't even consider the 5.2 Mag because they haven't owned a vehicle that new. I think an injected 5.2 Mag would be stronger than the Poly pulling a load.

The 4" stroker crank drops right in, rods are the same dimensionally as all LA rods, pistons need to have valve pockets for the intake valve which are different than the Wedge location.

There are two problem areas for the Poly. First is intake selection. Since Holley discontinued the Weiand 7503, there are no new intakes available. The last used Weiand 7503 I tracked on the 'bay sold for $520! There were some 2-4 intakes stock and these are decently priced but try to put carbs on them! The factory 4-barrel manifold from the 1962 is priced at about the 7503 range.

The second problem area is the camshaft selection. Crane and Isky used to make cams but not for a long time now. Chris Neilsen in Utah has a supply of cores and will grind one for you, that's who ground Pavlovich's cam. There is a smaller cam company who advertised new Poly cores about 3 years ago. Figure that the new Poly cam, lifters and pushrods will run you $400 or so. If anyone has better information chime in.

The blocks are pretty stout but Mopar casting quality rules. I would feel safe at 0.060" overbore and I believe Pavlovich's engine ended up with 4.000" pistons. But I'd UT a block before going to 4.000".

The timing set, oil pump and distributor swap from LA motors, not a problem.

Rocker Arm Specialities will rebuild the rockers.

Race Section denizen OU812 claims to have Poly head porting experience.

The Edelbrock P-600 3-2s manifold for Polys has been discontinued for ages. It is cool but uses Stromberg 97 type 3-bolt 2-barrel carbs that either leak or cost an arm and a leg to have work right. There is an aftermarket fuel injection system that looks like a 97 so that may be an option. also the 97 is back in production at cost of ~$400 each.

All for now,
R.


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BobK
super stock


Reged: Jun 03 2005
Loc: Chesapeake Va
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: dogdays]
      #4565967 - Mon Jul 21 2008 03:58 PM Attachment (140 downloads)

There is a P-300 set up for Rochester carbs also. Mine runs Ford 94's or Stromberg 97's. Surprises a lot of people.

--------------------
1964 Imperial Crown Coupe
1964 Plymouth Belvedere x 2
1964 Plymouth Fury x 2
1964 Plymouth Sport Fury
1967 VW Beetle


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dogdays
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: BobK]
      #4566046 - Mon Jul 21 2008 04:29 PM

I have seen a few P-600s go over the 'bay and have yet to see one with the Rochester bolt pattern. They are relatively rare. For those who think that Weiand is still making the 2-4s for the Poly, get real. I wish that they were still making the 7503, but that's been gone a year. I don't have a catalog old enough to show tthe Weiand 2-4 manifold. Offenhauser AFAIK never made an intake for the Plymouth Poly. They might have made intakes for Chrysler or Dodge Polys but not for the one that turned into the 318.

They are a good engine but the two problems that I talked about in an earlier postt are still there.

R.


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RED73RALLYE
member


Reged: May 30 2010
Loc: HAMILTON,ONTARIO,CANADA
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: 65rbdodge]
      #6011414 - Sun May 30 2010 07:59 PM

THE 318 POLY CAN BE BORED OUT .100 AND THIS ENGINE WILL BE ONE HECK OF A STUMP PULLER

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HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel


Reged: Nov 21 2009
Loc: Death Valley Prospector
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: dogdays]
      #6011587 - Sun May 30 2010 09:32 PM

Quote:

I have seen a few P-600s go over the 'bay and have yet to see one with the Rochester bolt pattern. They are relatively rare. For those who think that Weiand is still making the 2-4s for the Poly, get real. I wish that they were still making the 7503, but that's been gone a year. I don't have a catalog old enough to show tthe Weiand 2-4 manifold. Offenhauser AFAIK never made an intake for the Plymouth Poly. They might have made intakes for Chrysler or Dodge Polys but not for the one that turned into the 318.

They are a good engine but the two problems that I talked about in an earlier postt are still there.

R.




Ain't it the truth? GOOD MOTOR.



--------------------
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"


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mike s
mopar addict


Reged: Jan 07 2007
Loc: Mi,U.S.A.
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
      #6011640 - Sun May 30 2010 10:10 PM

Camcraft also has cams for the poly.The cumbustion chamber is almost identical to the 2008 up 4.7L Chry V-8.The cyl heads can be ported to very close to the same numbers as an Edelbrock magnum with custom valves which are available.A friend is fabing an aluminum custom intake (single 4 bbl).Easy to stroke with available cranks.Overbore .060 easily more with sonic check.

Well worth the added expense.

--------------------
Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike


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topside
super gas


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: So Near, Yet So Far
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: mike s]
      #6012410 - Mon May 31 2010 11:21 AM

I have and have owned an example of every Mopar V8 in pretty much every size, up to the late '70s. I'd stick with the Poly, good engine. Have one now with 103K, stock, excellent street motor. IIRC, the '65 Torqueflite has some 1-year-only features, primarily in the shift mechanism.
I'd be inclined to run a stock cam in a car that heavy, and find or adapt a higher-ratio rocker to get some lift; you'd maintain strong vacuum but pick up HP & TQ. Should be a junkyard or swap meet 4-bbl intake somewhere, and improving the exhaust of course helps.


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #6012727 - Mon May 31 2010 01:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Were any of the LA 318s internally balanced? We would have to use the 65 torque converter, so if the newer 318s are externally balanced, we would need to add a weight to the old converter, correct?




All the poly 318's were internally balanced, as were all LA 318's until ???? AFAIK, the late magnum 318's are also internally balanced, but I could be wrong.




all 318's are internal balanced....an LA top end bolts to a poly block, too, you just need an LA cam...

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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SLOW67
super stock


Reged: Sep 03 2009
Loc: NC
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: patrick]
      #6012762 - Mon May 31 2010 02:10 PM

Sonic check the poly block, if its got enough material bore it to 4.04 and put a set of stock 340 pistons in it, add a steel 273 crank and stock rods and have yourself a 340 We did this in a friend of mines boat and it turned out pretty well.

--------------------
67 Valiant sedan
98 Ram 2500 488 V10

"I'd rather fail at something really hard, than succeed at something really easy" -Jesse James



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rbstroker
super stock


Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: West Tennessee
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: Dennis_K]
      #6014217 - Tue Jun 01 2010 05:15 AM

I had a new 1965 Sport Fury in 1965. It had a 318 and AC. Made a few trips between Detroit and LA area. It was great on gas. I finally changed the 2bbl setup to a Carter AFB by using an earlier intake (1958 I think), had dual exhaust made up, and was very happy with the increase in performance. I didn't do it, but changing the 2.76 gear to a 3.23 would probably make a huge difference all by itself.

--------------------
This is the land of the free
because of the brave


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Anonymous
Unregistered



Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: rbstroker]
      #6015638 - Tue Jun 01 2010 07:25 PM

I'm wondering when someone will notice that the OP's question was posted two years ago.

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oldsklharo
enthusiast


Reged: Jun 25 2010
Loc: Iowa, US
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: ]
      #6145473 - Tue Aug 17 2010 10:25 PM

Well if he is not around anymore I will take all advice given above and put it to good use!! I am a 66' Coronet 440 owner and it has a Poly in it. I want to build something strong and different.........something you don't see every day and you guys have made my day!!!!

Thanks, Mike

--------------------


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Rob C
super street


Reged: Mar 04 2005
Loc: Earth
Re: 1965 318 Poly ? Rebuild or swap to LA 318? [Re: patrick]
      #7606609 - Thu Feb 28 2013 05:49 AM

Quote:


all 318's are internal balanced....an LA top end bolts to a poly block, too, you just need an LA cam...



Sorry for the thread revival, but while the Poly & LA head will bolt to each others respected blocks, there useage on each others blocks is a no way, now how, no go!
Water cooling ports are the issue.

Otherwise, the blocks are extremely close to each other. More like a evolution on the LA.


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