471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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This stroker motor of mine has had its share of issues. Most recently, I've noticed some increasing tappet noise. I decide to remove the intake for inspection.
Found the #5 intake lifter to be partially digested.
This motor probably has less than 2000 miles on it. I've had the intake off several time along the way and each time inspected the lifters. This is a recent development.
Most recently, I replaced/upgraded the heads. Again, I noticed no cam or lifter wear while I had it apart. One thing I neglected to do after changing the oil this last time was to pour in the Comp Cams additive I've been using. In less that 200 miles, this is the result.
For the record, the cam is (was) a Comp Cams XE274HL. Nothing too crazy. Valve springs are beehives from IMM. Not sure of the pressures, but probably not much more than the double springs I ran on the old heads. Running iron adjustable rockers.
Right now I'm going with the theory that its an oil failure, with maybe a chinese lifter factor mixed in.
I haven't decided on my replacement plan yet. If I stick with Comp Cams, I'll probably step up a bit to a XE275HL. As far as lifters go, I'm not sure.
One thing for certain, I'm about to pay my "stupid tax".
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
Edited by 471Magnum (Wed Mar 07 2012 04:03 PM)
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Challenger 1
Everyones favorite tool!!
Reged: Feb 05 2005
Loc: Cincinnati
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That sucks big time, I'm so sorry.
I would lean toward incorrect valve lash/preload.
It's so easy to get it wrong and is easy to get right when first building the motor. I do it with the intake off so I can see the lifter plunger so I can insure the proper preload at the lifter.
Good luck with your rebuild.
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Rapid340
mopar addict
Reged: Sep 06 2004
Loc: oberlin, Ohio
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Sorry to hear, what oil did you use?
Also, it is a really good habit to never remove more than one lifter at a time when inspecting them or transfering to a lifter box for storage. I'm not saying you did anything wrong but I know if I am not careful all I need to do is misplace one to have issues.
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Jeff Patterson 71 Duster 340, Factory Appearing
11.40 121MPH on polyglass, 3400 lb race weight.
Engle flat tappet cam.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul?
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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I checked the pre-load a couple of times prior to this. That cam as always been a bit noisy. It's certainly possible that could be the cause. I'll definitely have the opportunity to set it with the intake off this next time.
It's also probably worth mentioning that the #5 cylinder also seems to have an oil consumption problem. The plug fouled-up with oil. I did a compression check to find that cylinder 20 psi lower than the others. That could be attributable to the reduced intake lift. Before I found the wiped lobe, I was leaning towards re-ringing that cylinder.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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Dodgem
master
Reged: Mar 21 2008
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Get good lifters and make sure you do not preload to much. Hughes offers
Cryogenic treatment for the lifters and probably the cams too. pay me now or pay me later.
My be time to step up to a hydraulic roller.
For sure always use a zinc additive!!!
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lewtot184
pro stock
Reged: Jun 09 2008
Loc: usa
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check the seat pressure. some of those beehives have a lot of seat pressure for street flat tappet cam.
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MLR426
Hair today, gone tomorrow
Reged: Aug 17 2005
Loc: ILL
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James,
Brad Penn or equivalent oil only with zinc and phosphur in it. If your using an additive what do you think is going on inside the engine until the additive is getting mixed in with the oil ?? It's also a gamble when adding the additive after the fact.
logan426 martin
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Banned-Parts-1
Reged: Jan 12 2012
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With it that far gone, didnt it show signs of issues long before this point???
Ive run old junkers for years that ticked, knocked and the worst lifter I ever saw was a pushed in bottom, thats ugly....
Good luck on the fix though  Its got to be bad parts these days, luck of the draw???
I say this simply because luckly ive not had this happpen ever, just a good stash of old stp and std breakin like we all do.
Im still trying to grasp the concept of metal on metal when most dont consider a cam a wear item.
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DAYCLONA
Look At Me! Look At Me!
Reged: Dec 10 2007
Loc: Mass
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I've seen, HAD, and heard too many horror stories with Comp Cams to warrant any future involvement with purchasing any of their cams....might be another problem, but IMHO I'd suspect the cam
Mike
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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I ran this motor a bunch before this. Had a saga with the heads leaking through the guides that took a long time to resolve, and probably masked and distracted me from this issue. Finally installed the RHS heads to take care of that.
That being said, I inspected the lifters on several occasions prior when I had the motor torn down for the head issues. No wear was noted.
It's always have had a lot of lifter noise. Tweaked the preload in an attempt to quiet it down some to no avail. It's possible that I over did it.
I used plenty of break in lube. The Comp Cams additive was at oil changes... but not this last one.
Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.
As far as what cam and lifter package goes in next, I'm not sure. It'll will likely be a similar grind as I really liked the performance. I'll probably be talking with Hughes this weekend in Indy.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.
There is no potential damage, it's a definite with that much worn off that lifter , I'm sure the cam looks as bad.
Metal chips on the piston skirts in the vicinity of that lobe and the oil pump will be scared because it sees unfiltered oil.
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Challenger 1
Everyones favorite tool!!
Reged: Feb 05 2005
Loc: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Quote:
Biggest concern now is lifter trash and potential bearing damage.
There is no potential damage, it's a definite with that much worn off that lifter , I'm sure the cam looks as bad.
Metal chips on the piston skirts in the vicinity of that lobe and the oil pump will be scared because it sees unfiltered oil.
Yup it's gonna be neccessary to replace all bearings, maybe rings and more.
Every inch and passage of the block, crank, rods and pistons will need to be cleaned.
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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I'll start tearing into it further tonight. We'll see what I find when I pull a few caps.
The cam lobe is definitely damaged. I haven't turned the motor over to inspect the entire lobe, but yeah, the cam is toast, no doubt.
I'm not counting on getting lucky.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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rave_12000
enthusiast
Reged: Jan 03 2007
Loc: kansas city, mo
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I lost a completely rebuilt 340 after 12 miles. Chalked it up to oil pump failure? Spun a main bearing and there was trash all over the motor. I would think that bearing material is softer than that of a litter. In my case all of the crank journals were scored. You might have to turn yours.
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Vacation-6
Reged: Feb 15 2010
Loc: Granite Bay CA
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These cams are a bit noisier than other types. I wasted 2 XE285s in my 493. I also figure that it was due to my ignorance about inadequate Zinc protection. I've since learned plenty on the subject, but there is always room for improvement.
Comp now offers the "Pro Plasma" treatment. Its a sort of surface hardening that along with proper oil, should last a long time. I'm thinking of switching back to that 285 since I liked the performance ans streetability of it.
Sorry for your troubles. Broken parts are a hard lesson to learn, huh?
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
These cams are a bit noisier than other types. I wasted 2 XE285s in my 493. I also figure that it was due to my ignorance about inadequate Zinc protection. I've since learned plenty on the subject, but there is always room for improvement.
Comp now offers the "Pro Plasma" treatment. Its a sort of surface hardening that along with proper oil, should last a long time. I'm thinking of switching back to that 285 since I liked the performance ans streetability of it.
Sorry for your troubles. Broken parts are a hard lesson to learn, huh?
is that pro plasma the same as the nitride they offer to the tune of $150 EXTRA ???
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.
I'm in the process of pulling the pan now. No obvious junk found when I drained the oil, but I didn't expect to find anything. Trying to bust the drag link from the idler arm. Got to feeling weak swinging the mini sledge. Decided I'd better take a dinner break. LOL
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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bigtail
mopar
Reged: Jan 01 2012
Loc: NE
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I second the use of Hyd rollers. You would have been bucks and headaches ahead at this point. Be aware, Comp Cams had had catastruaphic failures with their roller hyd lifters. Maybe time to change to another brand. Do a google search.
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This page is made up completely of recycled electrons.
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.
It's the cam , XE have fast ramps and the valves tend to slam shut.
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Here's the rod bearings from a 360 with HOURS of run time , car was never driven other than up and down the driveway, lifter not nearly as bad as yours .
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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Pulled the 2 and 4 main caps. Bearing halves looked pretty much like JohnRR's pic above. Maybe not quite as bad, but definitely scored.
No scoring on the crank though from what I've seen this far.
Guess the motor is coming out.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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Vacation-6
Reged: Feb 15 2010
Loc: Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
It's the cam , XE have fast ramps and the valves tend to slam shut.
I meant to write this very thing! Forgive me John, I'm starting to emulate your way of thinking!
Summit warrantied the first cam when it went bad. After the second one crapped out, I felt that I was pushing my luck so I just let it slide. I slipped back in a cam referred as THE Dinosaur.... the Mopar Performance 292/509. In the time since, Comp began offering that hardening process for their product line. I agree that a Hydraulic roller cam would be a better choice in terms of reliability, but the cost is just too hard to take! I'd have to sell a few parts or scrap a few cars to feel okay about spending $1000 for a cam swap!
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64Post
Doesn’t want a custom title because he’s a crybaby
Reged: Aug 18 2003
Loc: all over
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.
It's the cam , XE have fast ramps and the valves tend to slam shut.
I think my MM lobe solid might have been too much for the street.  
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Forum thread crapper for hire: Will post oversized pics on unrelated thread topics as needed/instructed. PM me for low rates.
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MLR426
Hair today, gone tomorrow
Reged: Aug 17 2005
Loc: ILL
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't necessarily think it's the cam that's noisy, but the lifters that come with the kits. I'll be ordering a set of Topline Hylifts for the next cam.
It's the cam , XE have fast ramps and the valves tend to slam shut.
Thats correct and creates,and resonates the noise.
Johnson Hylift manufactures lifters for many companies, At Radiac Abrasive we make grinding wheels for them.
logan426
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rbstroker
super stock
Reged: Sep 24 2006
Loc: West Tennessee
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I wonder if the composite lifters available through 4secondsflat would be worth considering?
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Vacation-5
just idiot?
Reged: Mar 07 2007
Loc: Finally a HUSKER again
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How old it the set up? The reason I ask is there was a run of "bad" lifters going around a few years ago. Too bad you got bit, there is far too many variables to know what caused it now. Hope ya dont have too many issues when ya dig in further.
Good luck, and price a hydrailic roller, it hurts....
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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Pale_Roader
The correct spelling is "of." Just passing that along.
Reged: Jan 21 2005
Loc: the frozen wastes...
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Well now you got me wondering about using those 10 year old (new in box) Comp lifters and springs with a Hughes Whiplash cam...
Why cant this stuff just be simple...???
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Well now you got me wondering about using those 10 year old (new in box) Comp lifters and springs with a Hughes Whiplash cam...
Why cant this stuff just be simple...???
10yrs old would put the lifters before the bad ones got dumped into the system , but you want to check and make sure they spin well first .
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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Cam was purchased about a year ago.
Lifters were definitely spinning before the accelerated wear started. I went to extra effort cleaning out the bores and test fitting the lifters at assembly. Judging from the wear pattern, it even appears it continued to spin after the wear started. It would have wiped a lot sooner otherwise. I'm pretty sure botched preload was the culprit.
Picking the next set of lifters right off the proverbial tree. Ordering direct from Topline Hylift.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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I should mention that the set of Comp Cam lifters I just received have no country of origin listed on the packaging. They're going back un-opened.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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scatpacktom
super gas
Reged: Jan 26 2003
Loc: Phila Pa
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I would measure the lifter bores
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F.A.S.T T/A Challenger 340 six pack 4sp 11.48 at 123 on G60 15s
F.A.S.T 71 Super Bee 440 six pack 4sp 11.49 at 122.99 on G70 14s
Pure Stock 70 Duster 340 4 sp 13.20 at 105.30 on F70 14s
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70Cuda383
Kaptain Kuda
Reged: Oct 07 2003
Loc: Marysville, O-H-I-O
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don't be alarmed when you fire up the XE275HL cam...it's a noisy one too.
I was worried at first when I heard mine, sounded like a sewing machine! but, 4,000 street miles and it never skipped a beat.
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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Took the day off today to pull the motor and tear it down.
Pretty much have finished the tear down. All that is left is pulling the crank.
Removed the pistons and rods to find those journals lightly scoured. I think it will clean up with a polish though.
Bigger concern is the piston skirts and bores. Some light scuffing there. Not sure how much would be considered acceptable. I'll try to post a photo later. Hopefully they are salvageable.
Plan is to get the block and crank to the machine shop tomorrow.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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Challenger 1
Everyones favorite tool!!
Reged: Feb 05 2005
Loc: Cincinnati
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Did you tear it apart like I did the last time I had to do that? 
__
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JohnRR
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Did you tear it apart like I did the last time I had to do that?
__
Hopefully you swept before laying the pistons out ...
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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Here is a picture of the #7 bore. Seems to be the worst of them.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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AndyF
moparts guru
Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Oregon
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Chewing up a cam lobe is a real bummer. I lost my original 426W engine years ago that way. The lobe material went into the oil pump and then that sheared the pump drive and once oil pressure went away the rod bearings spun. You caught your issue sooner than I did!
I wrote an article on the subject last year. It is in the tech archives on this board if you want to check it out. I talked to a bunch of people in the industry and tried to find all the newest parts on the market to help flat tappet cams live. I think it can be done if you use the right oil, lifters, springs, coatings, etc.
http://www.moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_8-flat-1.html
Edited by AndyF (Wed Mar 07 2012 07:20 PM)
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471Magnum
master
Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Space Station #5
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Quote:
Hopefully you swept before laying the pistons out ...
The carbon build-up acts as a protective coating.
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-Jim
I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.
72 Roadrunner FY1 N96/V21-V25/340(+70) Auto
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451Mopar
mopar addict
Reged: May 19 2008
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
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sorry to hear that. My 360 wiped a cam a few years back. It ran fine for several years, and I would always use Mobile-1 in it. The cam lifter failure was right about the time all the companies changed to the "new" lower ZDDP additives (maybe 10 years ago?) The metal from the wiped cam and lifter made a mess of the oil pump, bearings and some cylinder wall scratches. I was able to have the machine shop re-hone the cylinders, and I rebuilt it with new bearings, rings, and a slightly hotter cam. I quit using Mobile-1 and only use the "Race" oil in the engine.
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Rick_Ehrenberg
super street
Reged: Sep 22 2003
Loc: Marlboro, NY, USA
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Complicated subject!
Basically, over the last 10-15 years, there has been a "perfect storm" of conditions contributing to this widespread problem. The three main ones:
> Detroit totally stopped using flat tappet camshaft, resulting in a loss of dependable, low-cost tappet and cam-blank suppliers
> The guys who knew how to make the above "for generations" are dying off
> ZDDP levels in oils have slowly been reduced. No law against ZDDP, but it isn't good for cats, and the EPA forces automakers to give long "low emissions" warranties
The fixes? Also multi-prong:
> Use oil with enough ZDDP (EG: Mobil 1 15W50, etc.) or an additive
> Use lifters with either a ceramic-composite face, or the 0.012" laser-drilled hole in the face
> Avoid long periods of idling
> Don't go crazy with valve spring pressure. If "enough is enough", "too much" ISN'T better!
> And, most important: Assure that your new engine fires INSTANTLY (timing right, float bowls filled, shot of ether, etc.) and doesn't see under 2,500 RPM for the first 20 minutes or so.
Rick
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