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WILD BILL
Huggy Blue Bill


Reged: Dec 05 2007
Loc: BROOK PARK, OH
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5653672 - Mon Dec 07 2009 07:27 PM

Here's the small block mods I was sent.






Edited by me

Don't need the same pic twice


Edited by WILD BILL (Wed Dec 09 2009 01:12 PM)


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52savoy
master


Reged: Dec 28 2005
Loc: Mopar Park
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5654013 - Mon Dec 07 2009 10:09 PM

I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder.
Patience is the key to it being centered.

I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle.



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dart_73_br
mopar


Reged: Aug 30 2005
Loc: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: WILD BILL]
      #5654179 - Tue Dec 08 2009 03:50 AM

Ok,

the SB pictures is duplicated. Is that right ? ....


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WILD BILL
Huggy Blue Bill


Reged: Dec 05 2007
Loc: BROOK PARK, OH
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: dart_73_br]
      #5654299 - Tue Dec 08 2009 06:53 AM

I don't know

He sent me both and to be hinset I didn't really look ath them all that hard.


--------------------
WILD RACING

71 CHARGER, 9.953 @ 132.66 BEST PASS SO FAR

Power by Koffel's Place


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JohnRR



Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5654353 - Tue Dec 08 2009 07:44 AM

Quote:

I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder.
Patience is the key to it being centered.

I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle.






You might want to get the Milodon adjustable regulator and turn that pressure down some ???


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506RR
super street


Reged: Jul 17 2003
Loc: Colorado
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: dart_73_br]
      #5654860 - Tue Dec 08 2009 11:39 AM

Quote:

Ok,

the SB pictures is duplicated. Is that right ? ....




Sorry about that! Yes, it is the same thing twice. Don't know why I did that. I only have the one page for small block oiling mods. Hope it helps someone out!

Thanks again for posting it up Bill!


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dart_73_br
mopar


Reged: Aug 30 2005
Loc: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 506RR]
      #5654888 - Tue Dec 08 2009 11:51 AM

Ok, thanks!

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68roadrunner
super stock


Reged: Jun 25 2009
Loc: ky
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5655173 - Tue Dec 08 2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

I don't know if it's creative or not.. but maybe all the years of working in construction, industrial maintenance/machine repair and cars taught me to look farther and try harder.
Patience is the key to it being centered.

I'm getting really good oil pressure with just the pump mods. The max wedge I just finished gets 80psi hot and 75 cold at idle. It will go over 90psi with some throttle.

[/quote



what kind of bearing clearance are you running with it?

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52savoy
master


Reged: Dec 28 2005
Loc: Mopar Park
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: JohnRR]
      #5655701 - Tue Dec 08 2009 06:11 PM

Yeah I've been thinking about lowering the pressure some...definitely don't need 90psi.
The clearances are same old....002-.003


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mopacltd
super street


Reged: Oct 01 2003
Loc: yarnell,az
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 6packattk]
      #5657194 - Wed Dec 09 2009 12:27 PM

This thread and the bigblockdart thread have some good information. Thanks.

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Troy
"Nice Guy"


Reged: Dec 02 2003
Loc: West Coast, CA
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: mopacltd]
      #5657682 - Wed Dec 09 2009 04:30 PM

....The old rule of thumb is 10 psi. for every 1000 rpm. Now a days it is more like .8 or even .7 for every 1000 rpm. The key is volume, keeping the volume up and the pressure down is the key.

Anything over 70 plus psi can cost you 10hp to 15hp easily.

We make 1120hp and spin the engine to 8800rpm+.....the engine never sees over 70 psi. and no, it's not a dry sump.

--------------------
....there is nothing like driving my 1968 Hemi Dart around town and having people looking at you like you're nuts!!


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52savoy
master


Reged: Dec 28 2005
Loc: Mopar Park
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: Troy]
      #5658960 - Thu Dec 10 2009 09:02 AM

Quote:

....The old rule of thumb is 10 psi. for every 1000 rpm. Now a days it is more like .8 or even .7 for every 1000 rpm. The key is volume, keeping the volume up and the pressure down is the key.

Anything over 70 plus psi can cost you 10hp to 15hp easily.

We make 1120hp and spin the engine to 8800rpm+.....the engine never sees over 70 psi. and no, it's not a dry sump.




yeah... I know all about it(decades old formula).... What bothers me about that "rule of thumb", using that logic 10psi at idle is ok. I don't know how you guys feel but I don't want any big block with less than 60psi at idle. I start to sweat when any of my motors have less than 60psi because it usually means bearing problems. Within a reasonable psi, volume means nothing if you aren't getting some pressure to get it where it needs to go.

IMO, That rule of thumb should be revised for maybe... 4000rpm and over?

Just my thoughts.
Fred


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440Jim
Diamond Jim


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Southern Maryland
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5659313 - Thu Dec 10 2009 12:47 PM

20-30 psi, hot oil, at a low idle (800 rpm) is not a problem, IMO. But it should come up quickly at rpm (maybe 40-50 at 1500, and 60-70 going down the track. Cold oil is another story altogether with oil pressure. But think rpm and pressure.

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Streetwize
master


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Weddington, N.C.
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5660232 - Thu Dec 10 2009 07:51 PM

Why does this stuff sound mighty familiar......

--------------------
WIZE

Edited by Streetwize (Thu Dec 10 2009 07:57 PM)


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493_DART
The Beast!!


Reged: Jul 11 2004
Loc: WORST WEATHER IN USA
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: Streetwize]
      #5660251 - Thu Dec 10 2009 07:59 PM

subscribing !



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DefbobAdministrator
TaterSalad


Reged: Nov 27 2004
Loc: Norwich CT USA
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5660274 - Thu Dec 10 2009 08:11 PM

440Jim, I have never seen such effort put into a Melling pump or a stock oil pump cover

I took the easy route and bought an aftermarket block, Milodon pump, Ted Billet pump cover, and dual swinging pickup

--------------------
"Some Assembly Required"



The Dart formerly known as....
71 Challenger Convertible 11.54 @ 116
70 Cutlass S Twin Turbo something...
68 Kaiser M715
68 Kaiser M725


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440Jim
Diamond Jim


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Southern Maryland
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: Defbob]
      #5660796 - Fri Dec 11 2009 07:29 AM

That was part of my test. That pump was a standard volume pump and I ran it and a off the shelf high volume pump on my race car for comparison. I used the same relief spring, and the pressure going down the track was the same. I was happy with the standard volume pump, but I didn't see any significant track ET improvement.

My street 440 sees higher oil temperatures and lower idle rpm, so I run a high volume in that. With the HV, hot oil and 900 rpm it gets 25 psi. The main bearings are wide groove full and I think that bleeds some pressure too. Driving down the road at 3000 rpm, it is 65 psi, hot.


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52savoy
master


Reged: Dec 28 2005
Loc: Mopar Park
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5661176 - Fri Dec 11 2009 10:54 AM

My thoughts are...
There is only a few horsepower difference between having an oil pump with 60psi versus one with say.. 70 or 80psi. Not enough for me to take chances on overheating bearings, journals or rocker gear. Oil pressure doesn't rise at the same rate as rpm. It lags just a tad behind at first because it has to be forced through the oil passages, while the pistons,crank,valvetrain are already spinning fast. If you have close bearing clearances it can be argued either way... for or against it... But not enough oil can lead to overheated oil and burn engine parts.
I like to run bearings a little loose(.002-.003) so I want my pressure to be 65-75 psi at idle hot and.. because I don't run over 7000rpm.
Aftermarket blocks with revised oil passages don't apply IMO. This is for stock blocks and oil pumps because not everyone needs a WORLD block or Indy or Ray Barton oil pump.
I've been building engines this way for ever and ever and never lost a bearing. ..until recently. But that was because of a mistake I made in bearing choices .

25psi@900rpm.. you scare me


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sc301v
enthusiast


Reged: Feb 06 2008
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5661291 - Fri Dec 11 2009 11:58 AM

How about 10 psi at idle with oil hot and thats idling at 1100 to 1200 but i have 75 goin down the track.And i do pushrod oil with a mega block and dual line milodon system.

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Streetwize
master


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Weddington, N.C.
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5661303 - Fri Dec 11 2009 12:06 PM

My philosophy is pretty much this. ALL the oil has to pass through the pump and the filter...what is the point of a HV pump and a 1/2" pick up if the internals of the pump inlet and discharge are barely 3/8". it's like icreasing your motor displacement without porting your heads?

The tricks Jim outlines are essentially those I've been doing for years on stock volume BB pumps and the one I built for the Moparts engine masters 470 motor so many years back now. With a race motor the pump demand requirement should be proportioanl to the RPM increase, pumping 25% more volume at idle and mid range speeds always seemed to me to be a relic of the past where we ran 40 and 50 weight oils and we made up for higher than normal pump demands by increasing the internal volume. As I have found and I think Jims back to back testing bear out) a ported SYSTEM from the pickup through the pump itself is typically way more than adequate and I would argue heats up the oil a lot less than pumping more volume through the same small "stock" pump inlet and outlet orifices. Does it save any power? maybe not enough to measure but it puts that much less stress on the timing chain and cam and in-turn the crank so it's more EFFICIENT if nothing else and as an engineer HP is about efficiency.

I used to do all the drilling of the mains but please remember again this is how we used to do it before the super surfactant lower viscosity oils we havwe today.......back 40 yrs ago oil passages were made larger than required partly because engineers correctly factored in oil "coagulation" (like plaque build up in the atreries) over time with the older pariffin based stocks of years past. Now ironically engines suffer oil related failures from orifices designed smaller than prectical because engineers didn't factor for sub-grade "jiffy-lube" oil changes having the opposite effect.

FWIW

--------------------
WIZE


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440Jim
Diamond Jim


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Southern Maryland
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 52savoy]
      #5661441 - Fri Dec 11 2009 01:20 PM

Quote:

I want my pressure to be 65-75 psi at idle hot and..


What oil temperature and idle rpm is that pressure? And rated oil viscosity?

In my drag race car, I have never seen over 160 F oil temp, and typically it is 120-150 (and that is trying to put heat in the oil). On a street driven car, I believe it could easily be 200+ F and that will change idle (sub 1000 rpm) oil pressure significantly (viscosity vs temp). My street car doesn't have an oil temp sensor, but I can see the idle pressure change after driving 20 minutes.


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Stanton
mopar addict


Reged: Oct 13 2005
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: 440Jim]
      #5668587 - Mon Dec 14 2009 08:27 PM

I the big block diagram it says not to drill the #1 main passage. Why not ??

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tboomerModerator
moparts moderator


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: The frozen wasteland of Iowa
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Please [Re: Stanton]
      #5677091 - Sat Dec 19 2009 08:21 AM

Guys...Great thread!! I will move this to the archive...This will be good to have for future reference!

--------------------
The adventures of Larry,Moe,Curley, Shemp and the Banger sisters continue!!


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6packattk
mopar


Reged: Jan 21 2005
Loc: Texas
Re: Oil System Mods For Big Block Refresher Course Plea [Re: tboomer]
      #5677141 - Sat Dec 19 2009 09:01 AM

Thankyou,it is much appreciated

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