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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams
      #3134434 - Wed Dec 13 2006 03:13 PM Attachment (309 downloads)

hotroddave40 originally told us about the use of GM V-6 springs, which he said are a drop on, no machining required. I've been doing a little investigating. first of all, the specs I found on rockauto is this:

<a href="Sealed Power VS-1642 spring specs" target="_blank">http://info.rockauto.com/SealedPower/VS1642.html</a>

if you do the math, this yields a spring rate of 365 lb/in. backsolving for the free length yields a 1.898" free length based on these specs.

NapaOnline lists the free length as 1.94".

the Sealed Power VS1642 cross references to every GM 3100, pushrod 3400, and pushrod 3500 V-6 from 1993 to present. armed with this info, I went out and yanked a few (and the retainers) from a '94 grand am in a local junkyard. I have a friend where I used to work that runs the test lab there. he did some testing for me to verify the sealed power specs.

his findings on the sample I gave him:

Free Length: 1.875"
Travel before coil bind: .81"
Coil Bind Height: 1.065"

Spring Rate: 330lb/in

sounds like a definite possibility, the calculated spring rate was slightly higher than the comp 901's I have on my LA headed 360 now, the measured (12 year old spring) was slightly lower. but the measured used spring had a higher spring rate than all the comp cams beehives (pn 26995 looks to be essentially a "drop on" spring for a magnum head), albeit the GM spring is a little light on seat pressure, which could be adjusted with shims at the expense of lift capability. it would be interesting to get my hands on a MP R/T spring to do a comparison test, since MP give absolutely 0 specs on that

and now the the cheap part: the GM part numbers for these components are 10166343 for the valvesprings, and 10166344 for the retainers. if you go to the site www.gmpartsdirect.com and type those numbers in, you'll find the springs are $4.71 each, and the retainers are $1.52 each, compared to the manciniracing.com price for the MP .525" springs and retainers at $9.50 each fo the springs, and $8.95 each for the retainers.

so you can get brand new retainers and beehive springs for ~$125 to your door (gmpartsdirect estimates the shipping at ~$27!)

attached is the force curve from the instron he tested the springs on.


this weekend I will install a set on the magnum heads I have under the workbench and take pics for all to see. I'll also do my best to measure the current installed height of the stock springs vs. the installed height of these springs (using the 3100 retainers) in case of any changes there, so stay tuned.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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DARTSPORT340
super gas


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: NC
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3134633 - Wed Dec 13 2006 04:34 PM

BTT I want to see how this goes...

--------------------

73 Dart Sport- tube chassis "street car"
73 CJ5 304- FOR SALE
73 Dart Sport 340- Totaled


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dmerc
super stock


Reged: Dec 17 2004
Loc: New Mexico
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3134997 - Wed Dec 13 2006 07:05 PM

Oh Man! This is great. I'm almost ready to redo a set of magnum heads for a 408 stroker motor and this info could not have come at a better time. Thanks for taking the time to share this

--------------------

408 Magnum 700R4 Thermoquad 22 MPG!!With 3.73 gears


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gremlinsteve
top fuel


Reged: Sep 01 2004
Loc: houston texas
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: dmerc]
      #3135168 - Wed Dec 13 2006 08:04 PM

have you given thought to a gm z06 spring?

steve

--------------------
if You Like Gremlinsteve. Gremlinsteve Likes You.


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Magnum
master


Reged: Jan 24 2003
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: gremlinsteve]
      #3135197 - Wed Dec 13 2006 08:12 PM

Good work Patrick

--------------------
69 Coronet, 65 Belvedere, 87 Ram, 00 Park Ave, 93 Mustang


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: gremlinsteve]
      #3135847 - Thu Dec 14 2006 07:14 AM

Quote:

have you given thought to a gm z06 spring?

steve




yup, in fact the 3100 retainer is the same as an LS1/LS6 retainer, they offer a little more seat pressure, and up to .6" lift capability....but, the LS1/6 springs are 1.8" IH, and a smaller lower ID, so some machining will be required on the head to fit them. the V-6 springs should be a drop on, no machining required for those on a budget and can't/don't want to afford $100-$150 in machining, and have moderate lift cams (in the ~.5" and under lift range)...LS6 springs are 315lb/in w/105lb seat pressure installed at 1.8".

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: ]
      #3152707 - Thu Dec 21 2006 11:12 AM

Update:

well, I finally made it out to the garage to do some measuring, etc. and take some pics. pics will get up here in the next few days.

the GM springs do fit as a drop on. on my particular set of heads, they are quite snug around the "pilot" area. that's the good news.

here's the (arguably) not so good news. the closest I could measure my installed height on my stock, looks to be original valve job heads, was 1.625" (1 5/8"). the 3.1L retainers actually reduced installed height by around 1/32" (to ~1.593" IH) using the mag keepers. using the 3.1L keepers, it increased IH to about 1.65", BUT, the tip of the valve was below the retainer, and the rockers hit the retainer first. if you've got a cam that's ~.45" lift or less with 1.5's, you should be ok with these springs as is.


for my project, using these springs, since I have a .462/.470 cam (will be .493/.501 with the mag rockers) I want to see my installed height to be at least 1.63", since these springs coil bind at about 1.065". that means

1) either the spring pad would need to be machined down ~1/32-1/16" to get adequate installed height, or
2) the valve will need to be sunk in about that amount with the valve job.

a bit of a bummer, but since the heads need a valve job anyway, it shouldn't be any added expense to sink the valves in 1/16", not like machining the spring pockets, which would be an additional operation, and an additional charge.

I wonder what effect sinking the valve into the head has for flow...


again, YMMV, et al.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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HemiRick
Wandering Beale Street


Reged: Mar 07 2003
Loc: Memphis
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3152728 - Thu Dec 21 2006 11:23 AM

Sinking the valves almost always has a bad effect on flow.

--------------------
Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T & Charger,and 5 Challengers!


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ZIPPY
Get-Real! Get-X!


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: S.E. Michigan
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: HemiRick]
      #3152781 - Thu Dec 21 2006 11:50 AM

If I was building one (which I might, sometime in '07), I would probably just use the MP .600 lift springs which Mancini shows at 7.99, right between the cost of the two listed.

Not sure why a drop in spring would be advertised for .600 lift, when retainer to guide interferance will come into play well before that. I guess that is a roundabout way of saying the guides will have to be cut down which is no biggie.


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Gas_Bandit
master


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: near Alexandria, VA
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: ZIPPY]
      #3152853 - Thu Dec 21 2006 12:31 PM

Sounds like way too much effort to only be able to use a cam not worth using with the better magnum heads anyway.

--------------------
2003 Mercury Marauder, 34k miles, 3.73s and custom flash tuned
1981 Camaro, 350 w/ Holley Stealth Ram MPEFI, Sportsman heads, roller cam, self-burned chips, wideband O2
1983 Firebird TA
1993 Saturn SL2 83k


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BBR
Not the Jig meister anymore.


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Loc: Texas
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: Gas_Bandit]
      #3152874 - Thu Dec 21 2006 12:40 PM

Patrick, will a lash cap fit with the GM keepers and Mag retainer?

If I were doing a set of mag heads that probably could stand to have a new VJ, I'd go with the more readily available 11/32 valves. There's a billion different valve lengths/springs/locks/retainers to choose from if you do that.



--------------------
Mopar guy with a 1983 Mustang GT - 10.46 @ 130 on 90 pump gas
2nd place Street Race BB N/A - Drag Week 2012


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: ZIPPY]
      #3153193 - Thu Dec 21 2006 02:56 PM

Quote:

If I was building one (which I might, sometime in '07), I would probably just use the MP .600 lift springs which Mancini shows at 7.99, right between the cost of the two listed.

Not sure why a drop in spring would be advertised for .600 lift, when retainer to guide interferance will come into play well before that. I guess that is a roundabout way of saying the guides will have to be cut down which is no biggie.




yeah, and frankly there isn't enough install height IMHO to get .6" lift without getting into spring breakage problems....biggest kicker with the MP springs are if all the 2.2's have been crushed out of yards around you. the retainers are like $9 ea (vs. $1.50 ea for the GM/LS1) for the MP number....

I wonder how much you can machine out of the spring pocket to get more IH?

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: BBR]
      #3153195 - Thu Dec 21 2006 02:57 PM

Quote:

Patrick, will a lash cap fit with the GM keepers and Mag retainer?

If I were doing a set of mag heads that probably could stand to have a new VJ, I'd go with the more readily available 11/32 valves. There's a billion different valve lengths/springs/locks/retainers to choose from if you do that.






don't know. probably not. the keepers are flush with the top of the valve.

yeah, that's what I'm thinking--if you're doing a serious mag head, long chevy 1.94 valves are probably the way to go.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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GO_Fish
super gas


Reged: Jul 18 2003
Loc: Maryland
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3153996 - Thu Dec 21 2006 07:54 PM

Quote:


I wonder how much you can machine out of the spring pocket to get more IH?



I think the Magnum head porting directions say not to remove ANY metal from the roof of the ports (beneath the spring seat) because there is not much metal there. So the opposite is probably true also when machining from the top.

--------------------
Scott B.

"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"

68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph


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HotRodDave
The Mileage Master


Reged: Jan 29 2005
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3155909 - Fri Dec 22 2006 04:39 PM

Could you give us a side by side comparison with the stock mag info?

--------------------
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




68 cuda 360 notchback SOLD

1996 Ram 2500 5.9 eddy intake EQ heads, mild cam upgrade great tow rig!



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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: HotRodDave]
      #3157038 - Sat Dec 23 2006 05:55 AM Attachment (475 downloads)

I'll try get one of the stock mag springs tested for spring rate and coil bind height. according to the info sheet for them sealed power replacements, the OEM mags calculate out a spring rate of ~240lb/in. It probably won't happen before new years, though.

anyhoo, here are some pictures. **WARNING, THEY'RE BIG** and darn, they show off every detail of how dirty these heads are from being yanked of a motor and sitting under a bench for a year....

The GM springs/retainers and the springs retainers on my mags (I'm assuming they're stock) are shown side by side. Magnum on the left, GM V-6 on the right for all pics.

hotroddave- do these pics parallel what you saw with these springs?

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T

Edited by patrick (Sat Dec 23 2006 06:25 AM)


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157044 - Sat Dec 23 2006 05:57 AM Attachment (408 downloads)

another one, side by side. you can see how much more of a beehive the GM spring is--the retainer is much smaller.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157057 - Sat Dec 23 2006 06:06 AM Attachment (441 downloads)

side by side assembled on the head

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157061 - Sat Dec 23 2006 06:08 AM Attachment (380 downloads)

side shot, showing stock rocker on the GM sprung valve. bolt is simulating the pushrod

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157063 - Sat Dec 23 2006 06:10 AM Attachment (355 downloads)

close up of GM springs on the head

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157069 - Sat Dec 23 2006 06:13 AM Attachment (365 downloads)

close up of mag spring and GM spring on the head

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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VITC_GTX
super gas


Reged: Mar 22 2003
Loc: Tri-Cities, Washington
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3157607 - Sat Dec 23 2006 10:51 AM

Patrick-

Scott Brown sent me the MP high-lift springs (P4876062) for my Magnum heads to work with his cam (.520 lift). I was looking to get the retainers (P4452032) for them, but like you said they are like $9 each. Can I get an OEM set off of a 2.2 or 2.5 from a jy that will work instead?

--------------------
Van

"Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups"

1970 Vit-C GTX
1971 Demon - 12.76 @ 104.50
1969 Coronet 500
1971 Sebring Plus
1969 Barracuda Notchback - 12.41 @ 109.05
1970 Sport Satellite


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: VITC_GTX]
      #3162098 - Mon Dec 25 2006 11:08 AM

they should (2.2L/2.5L retainers). I'd love to see some spring rate and coil bind height info on those MP springs...

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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HotRodDave
The Mileage Master


Reged: Jan 29 2005
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3162300 - Mon Dec 25 2006 01:37 PM

Took my computer like an hour to down load them but looks like what I been doing. Glad to here I wasn't off my rocker about this. 2 motors and soon a third running around here set up like this.

--------------------
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




68 cuda 360 notchback SOLD

1996 Ram 2500 5.9 eddy intake EQ heads, mild cam upgrade great tow rig!



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GO_Fish
super gas


Reged: Jul 18 2003
Loc: Maryland
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3162752 - Mon Dec 25 2006 07:02 PM

Quote:

they should (2.2L/2.5L retainers). I'd love to see some spring rate and coil bind height info on those MP springs...



Yeah, its kind of odd that they don't publish any of the specs on their Mag springs... you have to dig even to find the installed height. Don't know what they are thinking, but I don't like it.

--------------------
Scott B.

"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"

68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph


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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: HotRodDave]
      #3172806 - Sat Dec 30 2006 07:04 AM

Quote:

Took my computer like an hour to down load them but looks like what I been doing. Glad to here I wasn't off my rocker about this. 2 motors and soon a third running around here set up like this.




what cams are you running with these springs, out of curiousity. I'm planning on swapping the mag heads on my XE262 shortblock, which will yield like .493/.501 lift, which from my measurements, look marginal, unless I sink the valves about .030 or so.....

for someone currently running a .440-.450 lift cam (which turn into a .470-.480 lift cam) these would be the cat's meow...

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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dgc333
pro stock


Reged: Apr 16 2004
Loc: Mass
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: VITC_GTX]
      #3172826 - Sat Dec 30 2006 07:17 AM

Quote:

Patrick-
Can I get an OEM set off of a 2.2 or 2.5 from a jy that will work instead?




I am using 2.2/2.5 retainers with the MP springs and they work out just fine. You do need to use the locks from the magnum retainers though. The 2.2/2.5 uses a multi-groove lock where the magnum is a single groove.

--------------------
Dave Clement
Pembroke, MA
03 PT Cruiser GT Turbo
99 Dakota SLT+ CC 4x4
68 Barracuda sport coupe
http://home.comcast.net/~dgc333/


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HotRodDave
The Mileage Master


Reged: Jan 29 2005
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: dgc333]
      #3239105 - Tue Jan 23 2007 06:35 PM

Patrick did you find out any more, like preasure on the seat and mabey .500 lift?

--------------------
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




68 cuda 360 notchback SOLD

1996 Ram 2500 5.9 eddy intake EQ heads, mild cam upgrade great tow rig!



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patrick
moparts member


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: Grand Haven, MI
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: HotRodDave]
      #3241224 - Wed Jan 24 2007 02:34 PM

should be able to calculate that out by looking at the free length and spring rate.

"blueprint" specs were free length of 1.94", and spring rate of 365lb/in, so with the 1.6" IH I measured with the 3100 retainers, that would yield a seat pressure of 124lb, and a .5" lift pressure of 306lb.

the springs I had tested were 1.875" free length, 330lb/in, and the installed height (on my heads) will be ~1.6". so seat pressure should be .275*330, or 91 lbs, and .5" lift will be .775*330, or 256lb.

remember, coil bind was measured at .81" lift on those springs, (1.065") so .5" lift with my measured IH would only leave you .035" before coil bind. I think I'll probably use these springs, but I'll see about sinking the valves .030" or so (to gain IH), which will leave me ~.060 before coil bind with my cam. This seems like the most cost effective way, since I plan on getting a VJ done on them anyway, and I'll probably get a 5 angle 75/60/45/30/15 so sinking them shouldn't hurt flow as much with the 15 degree cut...I'd wager it'll add a CC or two to my combustion chamber, though.

--------------------
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2006 Inferno Red Dodge Caravan SXT
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T


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HotRodDave
The Mileage Master


Reged: Jan 29 2005
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: patrick]
      #3279077 - Wed Feb 07 2007 10:01 PM

Could this go to the archives for future referance? Lots of goo info here, Thanks Patrick!!

--------------------
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




68 cuda 360 notchback SOLD

1996 Ram 2500 5.9 eddy intake EQ heads, mild cam upgrade great tow rig!



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ZIPPY
Get-Real! Get-X!


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Loc: S.E. Michigan
Re: new cheap magnum spring upgrade for moderate cams [Re: GO_Fish]
      #3783552 - Tue Sep 18 2007 11:44 AM

Quote:


Yeah, its kind of odd that they don't publish any of the specs on their Mag springs... you have to dig even to find the installed height.




P5249464 116lbs @ 1.625, 251lbs @ 1.125

P4876062 131 @ 1.625, 305 @ 1.125

Rec'd installed height of 1.64 for both, can't find coil bind height for either one.


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